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#1
11-08-2006, 08:28 AM
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The Big PeSA Thread
This big PeSA thread will pretty well explain most of what has gone on... it's going to take some time to post because I'm busy and I have to do a lot of editing of personal information, but I'll post a bit at a time and you can begin to understand it better. Whatever questions you may have will either be answered with subsequent posts, or not, and that is the lot of the PeSA member as well. There are over 700 posts in this thread, so get ready for a long read, if you are so inclined. If not, it's easy enough not to click open the thread.
gothamcityonline 10/10/06 07:04 AM (#1) Dear Members, With the success of the Fall Summit fresh in our minds, we wanted to share the Board's thoughts on the event and to update you on what PeSA is working on to help your business grow. The feedback the Board received from attendees at the recent San Francisco summit has been overwhelming positive. From the participating companies like Bear Stearns, Amazon, Google and eBay, to the attendees, everyone applauded the quality of the presentations and the caliber of the attendees. If you were unable to make it, we hope to see you at the Spring Summit (which is already shaping up to be our most in-depth event ever) and we have a full photo recap of the Fall Summit online (see link below). The Spring Summit dates and location will be announced in the next couple of weeks. Many people have made suggestions on how PeSA can continue to improve, which is something the Board is always striving to achieve. We would like to take a moment to share some of those ideas with you and our plans to incorporate as many as possible. 1. All attendees were thrilled and amazed at the scope and quality of the presentations from Amazon and Google. We understand everyone's interest in expanding those relationships and are working on programs with those companies to benefit your business. We should note that due to Quiet Period restrictions around earnings, eBay was not able to work their staff into the schedule as much as we or they would have liked. We are going to try to plan well ahead in the future to have eBay's unfettered participation at our next event. 2. The San Francisco Summit was 1 1/2 days long, which was shorter than our previous summits. We were able to add an extra day of networking on the end (golf outing, eBay tour, wine country trip) for those that were able to stay, but many people indicated a preference on more learning time. We do plan to offer an expanded format (in many ways) for future summits. 3. The quality of the venue (nice hotel choice Adam Hersh!) and the food (kudos to M***** as well!) was first-rate. We were even able to reserve a block of sleeping rooms for 50% below list price, further establishing our events as one of the best deals around for online sellers. In fact, the shop.org summit in New York City costs up to $1725 a person to attend 96 plus room reservations! https://www3.compusystems.com/servle...inServlet?evt= _uid=3D278&cm_mmc=3DShop.org-_-Summit06%20Boot%20Camp-_-Boot%20Camp%20pag= e-_-Register%20Now" Many people have indicated that an increased level of professionalism should extend all the way through the process and specifically include announcing the dates well in advance, more informative pre-event online registration, more efficient on-site registration, and more on-site staff to assist with logistics and general information. These are all excellent suggestions and we are working on them all so attendees can maximize what they get out of the event. This means that our many wonderfully helpful volunteers, like P*** (seen hanging a banner in the summit photos), will have an event company or at least have paid staff assisting in the setup and event management process so members can focus on learning and networking. Another important and exciting step in PeSA's evolution. So what are the next steps for PeSA? Fortunately, the members have elected a Board of dedicated and hard-working volunteers who are ready for any challenge. The fact that six Wall Street analysts attended the San Francisco Summit (and several have already issued reports based on their participation) means that PeSA has earned the attention of important influencers in the marketplace. Since the Summit, the Board has been hard at work forging new relationships that should improve all of our businesses. We would like to share a few of those ideas with you now. The new PeSA. It is our great pleasure to officially announce the E X P A N S I O N of PeSA! Like eBay, PeSA has come to embrace a multi-channel online strategy as the key to a successful e-commerce business. Many PeSA members cut their teeth in the auction marketplace and have since expanded into other channels, such as Amazon, Overstock, direct website sales, etc. Some members have also added keyword and affiliate programs to drive traffic. PeSA's expansion will NOT involve the renaming of PeSA, which has already established a well-respected reputation of excellence in the eBay marketplace; a tradition we want to preserve and hopefully enhance in the future. PeSA's expansion will instead be through a partnership with a sister organization, the E-Commerce Merchants Trade Association (www.ecmta.org) that was setup last year to focus on non-eBay, e-commerce strategies, such as the Amazon marketplace, various Google services, etc. Amongst other exciting benefits, ECMTA will provide PeSA members with access to their Web Graphics Division, for professional graphics, logos, web design, item templates and newsletter formatting at deeply discounted rates. In fact, the ECMTA Web Graphics team is responsible for the new look of the PeSA site that will launch on Friday. PeSA members can get a VIP look at: http://www.gopesa.org/new/index.cfm Over the next few weeks, we will be announcing a number of new partnerships that should help you improve your business. A brief word on finances. It is the Board's goal for PeSA to become a financially stable organization - able to pay it's own bills and hopefully engage professionals to assist in the growth and management of our organization, from managing the summits to assisting with marketing efforts to developing printed materials for the group. Historically PeSA has relied on volunteers to assist in many of these tasks, but as the group has grown, this work has at times been overwhelming. After all, we are all busy with our own businesses. In order to accomplish these goals, we will be implementing a dues structure to help the organization transition to a professionally managed organization that includes outsourcing of functions and subsidizing the summits wherever possible. The annual dues for PeSA membership will be $240 per year. HOWEVER, existing PeSA members will get the following deal if they sign up by the end of November: 1. Membership for only $99 through December 31, 2007. 2. Free trial membership in ECMTA for the same period. Any member that joins PESA after November will be charged the full rate. We will announce the dues collection process next week. There are a number of organizations like PeSA out there, almost all of which charge dues, and it is worth understanding how they operate. Shop.org, widely regarded as the industry leader, charges its largest retail members $5,500 a year and smallest members $2,500. These numbers are in addition to the summit registration which, as stated above, can run as high as $1725. We hope you agree that PeSA has reached an exciting chapter in our organization's history. The Board is working hard to make the months to come some of our most accomplished and we promise to keep you all posted. In the meantime, we have the holiday season coming up and the Board is hoping to make a positive contribution to everyone's top and bottom lines as quickly as possible. Specific details regarding the first of these contributions should be available soon. Event photos: http://www.gopesa.org/new/index.cfm?page=3Devents Sincerely, The PeSA Board 1bu**** 10/10/06 07:13 AM (#2) Jonathan this seems like all good news. Can you provide a little more detail though. Is PESA still a non profit org?<br> Is ECMTA a non profit org? Are any of the board or committee members going to be drawing a = salary? Steve cos**** 10/10/06 08:02 AM (#3) A long time comming I would suppose. Will non members be removed from this discussion board gol**** 10/10/06 08:22 AM (#4) Jonathan Thanks for a very good summary. PeSA has come a long way in the past three years that I have been associated with it. To see it evolve into such a powerful and professional organization leaves me with much pride. I can imagine how you and the rest of the founders feel. Congrats and good luck. We are with you. B*** har**** 10/10/06 08:52 AM (#5) Less than 66 cents a day  lov***** 10/10/06 08:58 AM (#6) You have done a fantastic job of guiding this organization to = where it is today. The new membership fees are very fair and insignificant compared = to the value that they will deliver members. Thanks, D**** lar********* 10/10/06 10:36 AM (#7) Thank you for the excellent, informative post. And thank you for all the time the committees and BOD have put into planning and developing. Ha**** byr**** 10/10/06 10:43 AM (#8) Thank you for the info. You didn't say where to pay our dues. It is time to move on. I would ask if there will be public accounting of the way the monies are spent. I am excited about the future of PeSA Co*** mr******** 10/10/06 10:48 AM (#9) Yes, where do we pay... that's what I want to know! <br> Cha***** cos********** 10/10/06 10:57 AM (#10) Ok I have found the answer to my previous question - Access to exclusive chat boards. Will membership include the cost of summit attendance ? Ki****** |
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#4
11-08-2006, 09:33 AM
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This is what you see when you look at the "new" gopesa page for viewing, maybe temporary...
Quote:
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"I'm the memory, you can't get out of your head, If I leave you now, you'll wish you were somewhere else instead" - David Gray |
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#5
11-08-2006, 09:34 AM
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I guess that's Java through Cold Fusion's way of saying Page not found.
__________________
"I'm the memory, you can't get out of your head, If I leave you now, you'll wish you were somewhere else instead" - David Gray |
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#6
11-08-2006, 09:36 AM
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Quote:
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#7
11-08-2006, 09:42 AM
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OK, I've got to start taking some names down here, because I always get them confused.
Jay Senese - jayandmarie (no power in Pesa?) Joe Cortese - NobleSpirit (founder and chairman) Jonathin Gariss - Gotham City Online (Exectutive Director, election committee) David Hardin - shoetime (director) Adam Hersh - adamhersh adamhershexpress (director, events) tom mersch - 99centnoreserve (director) John Stack - ACityDiscount (ethics committee, ha ha, no really) Michael Jansma - GemAffair (membership comittee) Julie Johnson - feelgooddeals (moderator) David Yaskulka - Blueberry Boutique (marketing)
__________________
"I'm the memory, you can't get out of your head, If I leave you now, you'll wish you were somewhere else instead" - David Gray |
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#8
11-08-2006, 09:45 AM
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Quote:
__________________
TRS #24 War does not determine who is right - only who is left. Bertrand Russell (1872 - 1970) |
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#9
11-08-2006, 10:45 AM
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Quote:
There are some here, self included, who are actual online auction sellers and who are interested in what goes on inside a group that claims to weild great influence over the industry. |
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#10
11-08-2006, 10:46 AM
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Quote:
That was a preview in October, today it's their live page. It's been moved from "preview" to "live" since that post. |
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#11
11-08-2006, 10:52 AM
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Thanks Toy for posting this stuff.
I like to see which way the wind's blowing as interpreted through groups like PESA. |
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#12
11-08-2006, 11:17 AM
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Quote:
 Thanks for posting the info Toy! |
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#13
11-08-2006, 11:47 AM
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bi*****
10/10/06 11:19 AM (#11) This is good news it looks like we have a direction and are going forward. Thank you to the board and all those who worked so hard Gl**** 10/10/06 11:54 AM (#12) Fantastic news! I look forward to PeSA moving onward and upward. Thanks, BOD. T*** gothamcityonline 10/10/06 12:14 PM (#13) We will open the process to pay dues next week, but it was important that we give members an update on where we are. Regarding the Summits, PESA members (now dues paying) will get early bird registration (read discounted) and exclusive access to accomodation discounts. As to the question of salaries, we plan to convert a number of volunteer positions to paying consultant/project positions so that we can give back some value to members that really contribute. Its not going to be alot, but its a little something to show our gratitude. The Board, will not be taking salaries, but there will probably be a small stipend and reimbursement of out of pocket expenses, which until now, have been absorbed by each individual Board member And, all PESA members will have access to the discussion forum. If you don't pay your dues, you will not have an active membership in PESA and no access to the discussion forum. We have a number of other news items in the works and I look forward to announcing them very soon. I hope I got all the questions. Sincerely, Jonathan ji********* 10/10/06 12:25 PM (#14) It will be great to get back to having a Spring Summit. I predict we will have 500 attendees at the next Summit, by having it east of the Mississippi. It amazes me how many smart PeSAns don't make it to a Summit. It's trite, but they don't know what they are missing. The members that do make it to a Summit seem to never miss another one. What a bargain at $99/yr. membership. Thanks for that, and for all the BOD and Jonathan do to help the membership. Looking forward to having a professional events management team on board if that happens. J**** unc******* 10/10/06 12:30 PM (#15) Congratulations on the new direction and renewed vision for PeSA and its constituents. These concepts are sound and appear to be well thouht-out. Providing an easy transition into the new dues model was thoughtful. I also believe that you've set a good bright line between the support of strong eBay merchandisers and the sister group that is more focused on overall multi-channel sales. Again, another well thought-out transition as we move from one to the other through growth and market maturation A big "well done!" from us. Unc**** 1bu********* 10/10/06 01:00 PM (#16) Jonathan sound great, thanks for the answers and working on this leap forward, and all sounds fair to me. I know I am excited to hear the "full details" St***** clos******** 10/10/06 01:24 PM (#17) Sounds great -a huge step in the right direction Any details on the web design provider? An****** thecol******** 10/10/06 03:15 PM (#18) Excellent. Thank you to everybody for the hard work. Dues have been long overdue and converting some of the volunteers into employees is a great step forward. Na***** lou******* 10/10/06 03:46 PM (#19) Just in the short time I have been in here, I know I have already gained more than $99 worth of knowledge! Consider me in all the way! Thanks, Cha**** tig******** 10/10/06 04:44 PM (#20) It was nice associating with you folks, but I'm going to recommend against our continued involvment. The bottom line just doesn't justify the dues in my opinion ... though naturally Ta**** may feel differently. B******* |
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#15
11-08-2006, 12:33 PM
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I have an interest in this. I try to keep a watchful eye for parties that try to interfere with a so-called "level playing field" in which I have a lot at stake.
__________________
Still kicking!!! |
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#16
11-08-2006, 01:35 PM
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Thanks Toyranch for posting all of this...
Boy, I'm having Ass Rainbow flashbacks big time!
__________________
Life is a circus and I appear to be stuck in the Freak Tent |
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#17
11-08-2006, 03:20 PM
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Sorry, I don't buy that Toysleazy.
You can have an interest, and this is an interesting topic, but when people spend a lot of time and energy slagging something they usually have an agenda, whether personal or business. |
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#18
11-08-2006, 03:39 PM
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#20
11-08-2006, 04:13 PM
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emo******
10/10/06 04:57 PM (#21) I will be fascinated to see how many people feel like Bill and drop out over the $99. Of course, it is "cheap at twice the price" for ME, but I can well understand how many others might feel otherwise I bet there would be far fewer drop-outs if there was any results on finding group rates for health insurance, shipping, packaging supplies, etc. Maybe one of the new paid employees could tackle these again. Br**** lau**** 10/10/06 04:58 PM (#22) Fantastic news! It's great to see PESA evolve to the next step! Le***** ce********** 10/10/06 05:50 PM (#23) I'd say this step was long over-DUE. Bad pun intended. JH phi******* 10/10/06 06:35 PM (#24) Congratulations to Jonathan and the Board for this announcement. This is a fantastic step forward for the future of our wonderful organization. Very excited Ph*** tig******* 10/10/06 08:44 PM (#25) Jonathan, Can you give me an idea as to what the benefits are that, as dues paying members of PESA, we can expect to receive. Are there any guarantees for these benefits? Will the bylaws be strictly enforced, and will there be any revisions of them to reflect the needs of a true association? Since currently there are no clear cut and advertised benefits offered to members as a group I was hoping you could shed some light on what benefits and support that we, as dues paying members of PESA, can expect in return for our monetary support. Will we be able to contribute, vote, and be considered equal members of PESA if we do not choose to attend a given the various PESA summits? Do you anticipate a change in the sentiment true involvement is only by attending events While I have seen many benefits to being a member of PESA and have and the chance to talk with many wonderful people (while there are still many more wonderful people I would like to get to speak with) I think the perspective changes dramatically when dues are required. The amount is not the most significant consideration, but what works in an informal group cannot be expected in a formal association charging dues. Will there be more open lines of communication from the BOD and various committees of PESA? Will PESA be offering open lines of communication with eBay to the membership, or will it be limited in the current fashion? Ta****** jayandmarie 10/10/06 09:20 PM (#26) QUOTE: Do you anticipate a change in the sentiment true involvement is only by attending events As a PeSAn who has attended all of the summits and served on the BOD and on the Moderator committee (and who spends a fair amount of time on the message board as well), I'd like to offer a thought here. I do not have the sense that, at any time in our history, PeSA set out to differentiate events-attending members from other members. Certainly, there has been a sentiment, which I feel is legitimate, that 'lurkers' who do not participate in Discussion Board discussions, but log in and presumably glean ideas and knowledge without reciprocating are doing the group a dis-service. They should be sharing their unique knowledge with the collective as well. The summit events are different. They are expensive and time-consuming and often pull us away from the tasks at hand. The 'opportunity cost' of being away from your business alone can cost thousands of $$. That being the case, why do those who attend the events bother? I think the events serve several purposes, in varying amounts for various members, but for members like myself who spend most of their time indoors and isolated, the getting-together and social networking alone is worth the trip. I personally completed a couple of very large deals last year with PeSA members, who I met personally at PeSA events and subsequently contacted and transacted with. Without that physical meeting I probably would have known these individuals only from their infrequent Discussion Board postings (and we all know who postings online can completely misrepresent the tone or mind-set of the poster in a negative way). So, basically, it's human nature: we transact with and interact with those we know. Our 'about me' pages tell other PeSAns only a little about one another: we learn so much more in the formal and informal settings presented at the PeSA events. Certainly, if Amazon & Google & everyone else feels the journey and effort to PeSA events is time invested wisely, it is within the realm of possiblity that those of us who choose not to participate should re-think that bias. Now, I recognize the realities: there may be medical reasons, or household reason, or whatever legitimate reasons that PeSA members do=20 not attend PeSA events in person. Similarly, I think = non-attendees who feel excluded should recognize that it is deep within our human nature to feel most comfortable with people whose hand we have held and who we have looked in the eye. As an aside, the January Ebay Top Seller event is getting organized now. Last year I told PeSA members to get on their TSAMs or category reps early for an invite: hopefully you did so and you were invited and participated. If you are a top seller in your category you need to be at the eBay event: they did a great job last year of setting up an event where top sellers could interact, remaining available but also remaining unobtrusive. There was a lot of business done last January and I suspect the next event will generate similar results. EBay picked up much of the tab for last year's event as well. JAY sho******** 10/10/06 10:56 PM (#27) "In order to accomplish these goals, we will be implementing a dues structure to help the organization transition to a professionally managed organization that includes outsourcing of functions and subsidizing the summits wherever possible. The annual dues forPeSA membership will be $240 per year." Say goodbye to 900+ members when this goes into affect. With the resent "secret" meeting with eBay and the BOD and the info provided on this meeting I in NO way would pay these fees. JMHO, Ra******* joefriday2 10/10/06 11:12 PM (#28) I'm happy to pay $99 a year for PESA dues. It's a bargain. I know there are some that will not pay dues of any amount. That's well and good. It's your decision. There are no hard feelings. This group needs money and dues are the way to get that money. If you haven't gotten your $99 dollars worth yet at PESA, then I don't think you will ever get it and you really shouldn't pay the dues. At least you tried and that's all anyone can ask. Our membership will surely shrink down and that's ok. We'll probably end up with about 400 dues paying members. Then we will start growing again. Not bad for a non-profit group that started out as a discussion board. Ben lan****** 10/10/06 11:22 PM (#29) I am an affiliate member, based in the UK though I do have another eBay selling account that would qualify. I glean much knowledge and insight from theis group, post occasioanlly, and visit this group most days to 'catch up' I will gladly pay the US$99.00, just let me know how pleae. PS: I can log into the GoPesa website OK, tried earlier, but it could not find the 'other' forum ? sho******** 10/10/06 11:26 PM (#30) "I would ask if there will be public accounting of the way the monies are spent." Don't count on it. Ra***** |
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#21
11-08-2006, 05:08 PM
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joefriday2
10/11/06 12:34 AM (#31) I believe PESA is a 501c3 corporation. They will have to file reports with the Internal Revenue Service. Those reports are public record and can be viewed by anyone. Here is some information about this: http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p4221.pdf Ben got********** Bi***** raises some extremely valid questions, ones that I'm sure many (if not the majority) of members are asking. Providing solid answers to them will go a long way towards keeping the "900 members" from dropping out. 1bu****** 10/11/06 03:04 AM (#33) Ben as point of clarification dues are $99 for 1st year then $240 per year according to Jonathan's Post St****** 1bu******* 10/11/06 03:47 AM (#34) Bi******* it was Ta*** who raised the questions, not Bi*** and she does raise some valid questions. The by-laws that currently exist are weak at best. There has been a real lack of transparancey in the past, will this change now and going forward? Will there be new by-laws adapted. It is apparent this plan has been in the works for some time now and yet only presented to the group yesterday. Never a mention or a road map was posted previously. It will go a long way to have more transparancey and a complete and updated set of by-laws prior to any dues process commencing. Also a release of current finacial statements is something that would be beneficial, a clear and concise set of rules regarding elections, dates, times, places etc. St****** sho********* 10/11/06 06:08 AM (#35) -St**** I am in 100% agreement with you. Ra****** 1s******* 10/11/06 06:26 AM (#36) I have another question on the dues. I'm sure there are a few other sellers such as myself who are not activley selling a this time. We used to run 100K+ monthly and at some point may jump back into the fray. We became members in the very early days of the "elite" I do still drop in here and occasionally comment and read but as a non-active seller I personally could not justify paying for access until I am at a minimum looking to restart selling. Will there be a "non-dues paying" member status of some sort? For example, can still read and post on this board but not able to vote in elections or access the private off-eBay board, and not eligible for any other PESA benefits? 1bu******* 10/11/06 06:32 AM (#37) Ri***** Jonathan answered that question already, post 13 of this thread "And, all PESA members will have access to the discussion forum. If you don't pay your dues, you will not have an active membership in PESA and no access to the discussion forum." bat******** 10/11/06 07:03 AM (#38) Way to go PESA - Great plans! Very encouraging, the combined business savvy of this group is astounding and the dues are well worth every penny! --- Bat********* co********* 10/11/06 07:06 AM (#39) Hmmmmmm............. bu****** 10/11/06 07:32 AM (#40) "In the meantime, we have the holiday season coming up and the Board is hoping to make a positive contribution to everyone's top and bottom lines as quickly as possible. Specific details regarding the first of these contributions should be available soon." I look forward to hearing more and enjoying the benefits of membership!! St******** |
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#22
11-08-2006, 05:52 PM
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Yesterday I sent a cordial message to the PeSA leader and moderators letting them know that I was about to remove myself from the PeSA eBay Group board and that I was no longer interested in being a member of PeSA.
Thus, I assume that by doing so, I am no longer a member of PeSA. For all I know, they might still consider me one but I'm not. Just for the record.
__________________
And then the duck said, "Put it on my bill." |
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#23
11-08-2006, 06:30 PM
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jayandmarie
10/11/06 08:17 AM (#41) It seems to me that the people wavering on joining or not-joining are asking two very different questions. One group asks: "Is this worth $99 / $240 to ME?" OK, legitimate question. It's the same question non-Buysafe users are asking about BuySafe's service. If BuySafe were free to all users (1) everyone would use it and (2) it would mean nothing as a result. The risk non-BuySafe users run, of course, is that BuySafe is successful in differentiating their sellers from other sellers, and non-BuySafe sellers are penalized in the marketplace as a result. Non-BuySafe sellers are hoping that the system does not work and does not bring incremental business or higher ASPs to their competitors who use BuySafe. The PeSA thing is similar. You are looking to gain a competitive advantage by participating here at PeSA, and you are trying to decide if it is worth your dues to gain that competitive advantage. Similarly, you are perfectly willing to participate, it seems, if it costs you nothing (as would 1000s of others of other would-be PeSA sellers on eBay and elsewhere). My thoughts would be: 1. If you haven't made $99 by reading these threads, then you're reading the wrong threads. 2. If you don't pony up the $99, just as with BuySafe, you run the risk of being excluded, formally or (worse) informally in favor of PeSA members (ie, last January's Ebay Top Seller event was heavvvvvy with PeSA members, and it was not a coincidence.) 3. If you don't pony up the $99, then you are asking too much to expect dues-paying members to still participate on your free discussion board: most of us have time for just one Discussion Board a day (and many top PeSAns do not particiopate here at all, and appear only at the PeSA events, like Ja******* from EF***, at the recent San Francisco summit). 4. If you don't pony up the $99, then you are banking that PeSA's agenda will be aligned with your agenda, and the changes we lobby EBay for will be the same changes you would want. The risk you run is that we are successful and your business is hurt somehow as a result. Bolding mine - TR 5. Clearly PeSA is lobbying for recognition at multiple levels within eBay. If PeSA is successful then that PeSA logo on your shirt or ad might really mean something. What if PeSA had a dedicated phone line, or VeRO contact, or whatever? 6. You cannot expect EBay to treat you identically to the person who does not pay dues. Dues-Paying demonstrates a commitment. EBay gets the Voices members from the message boards: they want EBayers who are already active community members. Certainly at the January Top Seller event last year (where I was able to spend an hour speaking quietly over dinner with Rob Chestnut, I spent my time speaking to my issues, not yours). If PeSA is holding events, or participating in eBay sponsored events, and you are not a dues paying member, then you cannot expect PeSA members to use their limited time to speak to your concerns rather than ours. The other question being asked returns to the Ethics issues, or the Structure issues, or the Non Profit issues, or whatever. These have been around since Day One, and it is over these very same questions that I removed myself from the BOD and have not participated since. Like many of you, I think that PeSA is wayyyyy behind in basic communication with the members, and that a full accounting would (be / have been) nice. But, so what? If you're using ethical / moral issues to debate the value of a $99 dues payment, then I suppose you are not eating meat, and not buying oil products, and not voting Republican or Democrat, not using Microsoft products, and on and on and on. The moral issues here do not relate to the Dues question, to my mind, and there is no guarantee that the subsidized PeSA will perform any more admirably than the free PeSA. If history is any indication, in fact, Dues will further corrupt PeSA and the message will be further lost or compromised. I don't see this as a valid discussion point for dues. If you don't like the group's set-up as a free group, why should you like it any more, or less, as a dues-collecting group? If you don't think the group is being run properly, then leave. Other members have left. Bottom line (for me): the dues are a small price to pay for continued access to eBay and other like-minded top sellers. I think of the current dues being collected as overdue dues for years past: PeSA could have collected dues years ago but they did not. It is also a relatively small way to say thanks to the dozens of members who have given literally thousands of hours of their valuable time to get us to this point. JAY co******* 10/11/06 08:38 AM (#42) So you believe the political structure will continue on a similar path then. The funds will give tighter control but yet greater potential. My time is not free and I can relate to that. At a turning point we are. I too must see what the promised benefits are before I can decide. I do like the looks of that PESA logo on my about ME page and this board is good for thought - but at this point I am uncertain of gained benefits. Tell me more about the great plans of the future Ki******** mrp********** 10/11/06 08:47 AM (#43) I know that I have learned quite a bit from this forum in the short time I have been here. I feel that it is definitely worth the $99. I will re-evaluate next year when the $240 fee comes around. Cha******** go*********** 10/11/06 09:20 AM (#44 of 740) I have to ask ONE basic question...why is every naysayer standing back and asking what will PeSA do for them. Why not look at the other side and ask what can I DO for PeSA to help my fellow members. Have we all become so self centered we only see the sky above our own heads. Seems the naysayers are the loners....certainly many questions being asked are good....why not get involved in PeSA and put in your time to improve the organization. As Jay perfectly pointed out, there is strength in numbers and since PeSA is already the respected organization that it was intended to be, how could $99 be a stumbling block. It's the old sales addage, give it to them for nothing and they treat it as such. Charge them and they will have much more respect and try to make it work. Maybe 400 active members paying dues would be a stronger force than the 900+ we have today. (I really hope it's 1000+ active members) Just some thoughts on the subject. lan******** 10/11/06 09:32 AM (#45) OK, being the tight 'rrrs that I am  Year 1 is US$99, Year 2 is US$240, so what about an upfront US$300 for 2 years subscription ? I will happily do that to save 39 bucks Ed******** li******** 10/11/06 09:32 AM (#46 If dues are to be collected then I think a treasurer should be elected. I know we already have one in Polly Cortese but we, the members, had no say in that appointment. As an aside, this board reminds me of a school committee I once joined. They begged for volunteers, I joined. There were 3 women running the show, the volunteers they did manage to round up sat there watching them talk to each other. As in; Jan, did you do what we discussed on the phone? Linda, how's your project going? So we are going to go ahead and do that? Great, meeting adjourned. It was the same with every meeting. Every now and then a question was asked, where can we buy the prizes? I offered a supplier. Great! Bring in the catalog. I did, she promptly took said catalog without another word. The next week Linda had to report on what she ordered from my catalog. In other words, there were 3 people running the whole show and refused to share with anyone else the plans or duties. I would have jumped in feet first if they had bothered to give me something to do, some direction, but no, they did it all themselves, leaving us in the dark. And believe me, each week the volunteers sitting in the dark got fewer and fewer. I eventually left too. When the event actually happened it looked nothing like what was described to us in the meeting. I didn't volunteer last year and will not this year either, why should I? They don't need me. My point being, I see nothing happening on this board. I see a lot of talk about how great we are, how great our plans are, how much has been accomplished, etc. But, what has been accomplished? What plans? What is going on? Everything here is wait, wait, wait, BAM, here it is, live with it. A good example is this announcement thread. Okay, yes, dues have been discussed before, we all know that. But BAM, here's the announcement, we have been hashing this out for a year but we haven't bothered to keep you darkies informed. Now just follow us, we know what we are doing and where we are going, you don't need to know the details, we'll tell you if we think you need to know. Like the eBay meeting, it will be great! It was great! We'll tell you all about it! It happened! What? No, we can't discuss it. Well maybe when you were hyping it you could have mentioned that the majority of the meeting would be Top Secret and couldn't be discussed afterwards? Someone asked about the results of the SF summit and got the same answer everyone gets. It was great! You shoulda been there! Here's pictures of us having fun. Be there next time. No meat. Why should anyone be expected to go to the summit on those answers? How about people who couldn't make it? There's nothing writing saying Amazon said this, eBay said this, Overstock set up a recap webpage for us, go here-, etc, etc. Why not? I was at the Atlanta summit and I still don't know half of what was said there, seems to me I missed out on all the good stuff cause nothing I saw would entice me to pay to fly to SF for 3 days. Sorry for the long post and general wandering of my brain but it really really irks me that so much seems to happen behind the scenes and we only find out about it after it was a done deal. I hate sitting in the dark. cam****** 10/11/06 09:43 AM (#47) I just joined a little bit ago and I was expecting to pay dues. I think it's a fine idea. I do have two questions. 1. Is it ok with ebay board policies i.e. group policies to have this kind of group discussion board? I don't think it is, paying dues ebay group is most likely a no no. 2. Not so much a question as a statement about a question not asked by anyone yet...I think there should be an option for people to pay the entire $240 amount rather then the reduced amount. I for one would rather pay more because this stuff does not come cheap and more money to the group would be better then less money. Da******* cel*********** 10/11/06 09:46 AM (#48) "1. Is it ok with ebay board policies i.e. group policies to have this kind of group discussion board? I don't think it is, paying dues ebay group is most likely a no no" Can't anyone create a private eBay group and include or exclude members as they wish? JH cam******** 10/11/06 10:05 AM (#49) QUOTE Can't anyone create a private eBay group and include or exclude members as they wish? Of course, that is what a private invitation only group is about. My question is about charging money to be in the group that has it's discussion board on ebay. I don't think you can do that here. Da****** cel********* 10/11/06 10:09 AM (#50) "My question is about charging money to be in the group = that has it's discussion board on ebay" I doubt it would be an issue if the dues covers membership at the GoPesa.org website and one of the requirements of this eBay group is that it is only for members who are also registered at GoPesa.org. Just a thought? The idea of dues isn't to charge people for access to an eBay discussion board. PESA is so much more than only this discussion group... JH |
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#24
11-08-2006, 06:48 PM
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______________________________ Piped Piper From Hell: Roy This post is not intended to kill, injure, harass, or intimidate, or place under surveillance with the intent to kill, injure, harass, or intimidate, or to cause substantial emotional harm. |
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#25
11-08-2006, 07:20 PM
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As a quick aside...
In case anyone out there is still laboring under the "level-playing field" illusion: Quote:
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I believe I can see the future, 'cause I repeat the same routine --nin |
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#26
11-08-2006, 07:20 PM
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So basically you give these A-Holes your dues and then when they meet with some Head A-Hole at ebay, they just *might* talk your issues for you?
Do you get to pick who talks your issues for you because I sure wouldn't want Jay talking for me. He sounds like a real self centered dickhead. I doubt he's concerned about anyone but himself and his budget to buy ugly hair hats with his name plastered across the front. At the next summit someone should tape a "Please Kick My Ass" sign on his back. He's such a huge turn-off.
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Life is a circus and I appear to be stuck in the Freak Tent |
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#27
11-08-2006, 07:31 PM
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1bu*******
10/11/06 10:10 AM (#51) Da**** I think it would be safe to assume this message board will be closed down and moved off ebay. This is fine except we have members who have requested for 6 months and even longer for access to our off ebay forums and they still have no access. Maybe the dues will go towards hiting a staff member to do tasks like this?< Again we have yet to be presented a road map, very typical. I have said all along we need dues, but also said we need a road map. It is like getting on a bus and not having a clue where the bus is going. St****** cel******** 10/11/06 10:12 AM (#52) "I think it would be safe to assume this message board will be closed down and moved off ebay." That is a big assumption! I didn't get that idea at all? JH 1bu******** 10/11/06 10:13 AM (#53) JH I would have to think it is against ebay policies to charge fees to access even a private forum, I may be wrong. No time to research it though. pri********* 10/11/06 10:17 AM (#54) I'm a new member and I'm not sure how I got here, but I attended the summit and have been moving forward ever since. This organization is so necessary for the serious online seller and you are doing an excellent job. I personally appreciate everything that has been done. These fees are cheap compared to the outrageous teacher's union dues I paid for 27 years! BTW, we called them "professional association" dues Ju**** cos********* 10/11/06 10:17 AM (#55) Can't anyone create a private eBay group and include or exclude members as they wish? I certainly took that to be the case. I belive we are in the process of determining if we will be reading this thread in the future. I have been in a internal debate trying to decide if this is going to work for me. Regarding the future spring summit will the exact location be determined before the discount rate anl. dues are to be paid ? PESA has many different members at different ages and income levels. Some have more time others less. To really benefit I do think I should at least give the summit a look see for myself. Then it would be easier for me to be certain. However if this Spring Summit is held in a smilar fashion I suspect the cost vs return may be less than I would like. Isn't it all such a gamble. I would like clear expectations of what benefits are offered. Good company and a logo is what I have so far Ki**** cel******** 10/11/06 10:18 AM (#56) That's why I'm mentioned above that the fees should not be considered as paying for access to eBay Groups. The fees would be for membership in an organization and one of the "benefits" of the membership would be admission into this private eBay Group. I highly doubt there is anything in the policies that forbids a private group from only accepting members of a certain off-eBay organization, but likewise I don't have time to research it right now either! JH cos******** 10/11/06 10:27 AM (#57) JH Wouldn't you imagine this was discussed in the recent meeting with ebay ? I am sure this is all green for go - from ebay. I'll take 100 shares of PESA at the IPO Ki******* tig******* 10/11/06 11:05 AM (#58) B*****, wouldn't you consider the hundreds of volunteer hours Tam****** spent on committee meetings and committee business to be a contribution, getting involved? Something other than a "loner?" There was no prospect for personal gain in all of that, nothing more than a desire to help improve the organization. While she wouldn't immodestly make this claim I'll say it without hesitation: she has helped improve this organization. So let's not go further down that road. It's also a serious mistake to talk about the $99 as the impediment, as if to balk is petty parsimony. The savings from buysafe will more than cover it if the promotion extends for a few months. There's nothing wrong with the idea of dues - that is not the issue. There is a world of difference between an informal network and a trade association. For one thing, the memberships attitudes will instantly change and this thread is an example of that. They are buying something, and they have expectations about that and many will be unwilling to accept as much on faith. Some not at all. Collecting dues is necessary at some point. It keeps the wheels turning. But it won't move the organization one iota in the direction of professionalism, or a member-centric organization. Without a formal structure, without a business plan, without explicit commitments to members and without clearly stated objectives, all dues are is a collection. --Bi****** pri*********** 10/11/06 11:21 AM (#59) "Again we have yet to be presented a road map, very typical. I have said all along we need dues, but also said we need a road map. It is like getting on a bus and not having a clue where the bus is going." This quote is typical of many that I find on the ebay boards. I can see the validity of the frustrated feelings that precipitate these posts, but there are a couple of broad-based issues that need to be addressed--not debated--but simply stored away on the 13th brain cell for germination. "....we need a road map. It is like getting on a bus and not having a clue where the bus is going..." would be a panic-condition 1 issue if we were discussing many existing group dynamics. There are models out there for forming all kinds of alliances. There is no group that exists in this exact configuration, nor are we discussing a group that would have existed at all 10 years ago; thus, we have no model. This group represents a cutting edge concept to merchandising and the organization of the stakeholders who have gotten together to codify their approach to this virgin territory. The fact that the roadmap is being developed as we travel down the road may make many people uncomfortable, but it is a necessary part of the process. There was no map that lead the pioneers into the west. This is uncharted territory and the application of B&M concepts to an e-commerce model is by definition going to be a clumsy modification at best. While constructive suggestions are always helpful, I don't think that negativity is ever productive. It is counterproductive to sit on this discussion board and whine about being left in the dark or out of the loop or plans, roadmaps and diagrams that were not developed before the fact. This is a new group, and without core people who have some kind of implied or delegated power to make decisions for the group, it will be chaos. The idea that we can all just fall into committees in an organized fashion is not possible while still allowing for the necessary creativity (read that flexibility)at this stage of development. While one could certainly argue for more efficient operations of many of the functions at the summit, for example, the core group of "deciders" has already taken that suggestion and planned for professional organization for next meeting. I see this as evidence that this group is a very healthy one at this stage, in that the "deciders" listened to input from the group and took action. This is the how I view much of the dialogue that I have seen on this board. We are ultimately responsible to get what we need from these meetings, summits, groups, and discussion board interactions. Ju********* 1bu******* 10/11/06 11:25 AM (#60) hmm wonder where my business would be today without any kind of road map, not that I have not changed courses many times because I have. But without a plan I would most likely have been on the same bus as glacier bay dvd. St***** |
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#28
11-08-2006, 07:38 PM
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#29
11-08-2006, 07:39 PM
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I'm still unclear on what exactly PESA members have gotten from all these apparent meetings with eBay. Maybe the lower fee for $.99 auctions which is available to everyone, but probably benefits jayandmarie the most. However, I don't recall a whole lot of other PESA members starting auctions at $.99.
Anyone know? |
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#30
11-08-2006, 07:52 PM
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And then they probably won't be able to say what they talked about due to disclosure. |
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#31
11-08-2006, 08:04 PM
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Of course I'd need to have his logo pins on my nipples while wearing his JAY hat and I'd need him to be talking the whole time, but once that's achieved it's all good. |
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#32
11-08-2006, 08:17 PM
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li*********
10/11/06 11:34 AM (#61) "While constructive suggestions are always helpful, I don't think that negativity is ever productive. It is counterproductive to sit on this discussion board and whine about being left in the dark or out of the loop or plans, roadmaps and diagrams that were not developed before the fact." We've been told of "Joe's Vision" for this group many times but have never been told what exactly that vision is. We've been told that we are going places but never where they are. We've been told that 'details will be provided at a later date' and are still waiting. We've been told that the mysterious 'white papers' from the very first summit would be published, did that ever get done? Now we are being told to fork over $99-$240 and let them do what they will with it, they'll let us know later what they used it for. I'm not disputing the dues. I'm disputing the way in which they will be used. Blindly. And we need a treasurer who will give detailed reports in a timely fashion. This group has existed long enough to have some clue as to where it is going and how they want to get there, all I want is a clue as to the plans. And I do not want to have to attend a summit to hear about it. pri******** 10/11/06 11:35 AM (#62) We were talking about the formation and structure of a group of like-minded people, and we didn't necessarily say that there should be no plan. We simply defended the somewhat serendipitous manner in which it has evolved. Big difference! This group has waaaay different goals than the sum of the clearly-defined goals of its members Come out of that box, boy! BTW, I sounded more than a little preachy--didn't mean to--also did not specifically mean to target you at all but think that your comment typified a lot of people's thoughts. Ju***** pri********* 10/11/06 11:45 AM (#63) "We've been told of ";Joe's Vision" for this group many times but have never been told what exactly that vision is. We've been told that we are going places but never where they are. We've been told that 'details will be provided at a later date' and are still waiting." Jeesh! There was nothing about Joe's vision at the summit. It was all about how all these cool concepts could impact my business and how I could adapt them. I missed the part about about Joe's vision. I'll tell you what I did see. I saw evidence that someone had a vision several years ago and that a whole bunch of really awesome vendors were interested in helping out. I also saw a bunch of successful e-commerce (read that ebay) sellers doing extraordinary things and spending all kinds of time telling me about them...and for the price of 2 glasses of wine, I got a fantastic private seminar from another PESA member that I couldn't have bought with all the money in the world. I could, given my proclivity for spinning the language, draw up a white paper report of what I saw at the summit, and I believe that Joe and Co. probably could too. But, that would take me back to the years I spent in the halls of academia, where way too much time was spent "reporting on reports" and "meeting on meetings" and not nearly enough time was spent in action. It was highly evident to this newcomer, that Joe and Co. had enacted a whole bunch of stuff that they promised in the beginning when the group was formed. I do hope they get their annual report out soon to calm the tide of opposition from those who require so much formal documentation from a new entity. Ju****** jayandmarie 10/11/06 11:47 AM (#64) QUOTE: I would like clear expectations of what benefits are offered Good company and a logo is what I have so far. Oh (partdon my french) Sh*t! Ki*******, you can't be serious. You can't GET NEAR these people from Google, Amazon or Ebay for that matter except at the the summits. You could auction 'Lunch With Colin Rule' on eBay and get $100s of dollars for it: how much would you pay for quality time with very well placed folks from You can't get even near ME for that matter. If that access isn't worth the money, and if you can't figure out how to leverage that to generate a return on your time and money invested, then God help you. li******** I participated in many BOD meetings, and most lasted several hours. They were nothing like the meetings you described above. JAY jayandmarie 10/11/06 11:48 AM (#65) (sorry, poor editing on my post. You should have read the FIRST version before I went outside for fresh air. Grrrr!) JAY li********* 10/11/06 11:56 AM (#66) But Jay, you participated in the meetings, we only hear that you guys had one, sometimes. Big difference. You have a few hundred people sitting here in the dark waiting to hear what was said and what decisions were made and all we get is oh, we had a 3 hour long meeting and it was adjourned. It all boils down to, if you don't attend the summits you basically get hints and inuendoes of things that may or may not have happened, nothing concrete. You must attend the summits to get any content. Some folks can't do that. Others won't without something concrete to base the decision on (whether or not to abandon their business/family for those days is a decision for most folks). I got a kick out of the summit but for other reasons than most folks. I was awed by being able to walk around the building and hear 'eBay' coming out of everyones mouths. Talking about eBay without being looked at funny. Having conversations about eBay without the slightly weird looks the general public gives you when you say it. In other words, I enjoyed being around other like-minded folks for a change. However, I would not pay to fly across the country just to experience it again. cam********* 10/11/06 11:57 AM (#67) QUOTE You can't get even near ME for that matter. Me either. I have a couple of friends that are interested in selling and I humbly answer their questions but my time is my money. I do this alone. Getting closer to Amazon and Google at the Summit....priceless! Da****** jayandmarie 10/11/06 12:03 PM (#68) li****** simply confirming I read your post, I understand your post, I have absolutely no response I wish to make to your post. JAY co******** 10/11/06 12:10 PM (#69) Well let's not get too upset - you know a decision can be made too soon or too late. I need a little time on this. I jumped onboard that PESA group of 30 program for $100 a month and now I discover this. I could see it comming but I have to also see results. Communication is key in any relationship. Is PESA going to grown into a large single destination shopping mall for all the members. Well if I knew that were the case I would have no doubts. But I remain unclear of the planned growth of this organization. A old friend called me the Martha Stewart of stupid questions - so just humor me a little and don't get upset. I'm interested just unsure. Ki********* emo********** 10/11/06 12:12 PM (#70) "We've been told that we are going places but never where they are" Some people are never satisfied. Isn't it enough that we are moving? Didn't your parents ever take you on a trip when you were a child and tell you "you'll know where we are going when we get there"? Wasn't that suspenseful and a lot of fun? Think of Pesa members as children and the BOD as their parents and everything makes a lot more sense. Br****** Bolding mine - TR |
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#34
11-08-2006, 08:22 PM
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Does he smell bad in person? He looks like he might have some personal hygeine issues, but then again, Marie may make him wash. Just wondering... |
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#38
11-08-2006, 09:07 PM
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li******
10/11/06 12:16 PM (#71) Yeah, and we always seemed to end up at the dentists office ac********** 10/11/06 12:16 PM (#72) I've been absorbing this issue before I posted. I, like Jay, have been a member since late 2003. I also served on the BOD and removed myself in late 2004. Board meetings are long and usually productive. I agree with Jay's statement: ";But, so what? If you're using ethical / moral issues to debate the value of a $99 dues payment, then I suppose you are not eating meat, and not buying oil products, and not voting Republican or Democrat, not using Microsoft products, and on and on and on." Over the last couple of years, I have been probably the most vocal Pesa member about the lack of transparency and the need for major organizational adjustments. I have been hounding the BOD for financial reports continually over the last two years except for the last few months. But, I really do not expect to see a drastic change coming soon in regards to reporting or transparency. That's just my personal thoughts. I see that the BOD is severely overloaded, partially by their hesitancy to delegate. That results in a lot of procrastination. They let their mouth make promises their bodies can't keep so they can address the issue later. I am not posting this to be critical of the BOD. But, your decision to join and pay the $99 shouldn't be based on what the BOD has failed to deliver concerning the reporting. It has to be made based on the return to your operation. Regards, Jo******** Ps/ BOD, Where the h$ll are the financials? < emo********* 10/11/06 12:22 PM (#73) I agree with Jo******. $99 for a year is literally pennies a day. If you don't get that amount of value out of this, you absolutely shouldn't be here. What they do with the hundreds of $99's is (to me) a separate issue. I don't care if the BOD spends it all at a strip club in one wild night, as long as I feel I receive $99 worth of value from this organization. But if there is any hope of ever truly moving to the "next level", they will need a lot more organization, transparency, and those very elusive financials. Br********* aci**************** 10/11/06 12:28 PM (#74) Br****** wrote: "I don't care if the BOD spends it all at a strip club in one wild night" I agree only if they invite me! pri********** 10/11/06 12:28 PM (#75) Br*****, Don't you think that the BOD is aware that they need more and better organization? Don't you think it takes 3 years to sort out the flotsam and jetsom that need to be organized? Am I just too right-brained to be of value here, or do you suggest that I remain very good friends with my accountant Is this the corporate equivalent of the gang that couldn't shoot straight? Ju********* thecol************ 10/11/06 12:28 PM (#76) Because I have participated in PESA I now have a relationship with Rob Chestnut, head of trust and safety. I am on the Trust and Safety advisory council, a group of only 6 buyers/sellers and about 50 members of ebays top safety team. I am helping make decisions that impact the area which I make my living. I have relationships with many of the top sellers on ebay, whom I can call and discuss problems that I am experiencing and find out how they handled it when they went through it. I know Marsha Collier personally and have been in her PBS special and my company is featured in her new book. I was invited to the top seller summit as a guest of ebay. I have a personal relationship with Colin from ebay/paypal who is an unbelievable wealth of knowledge. These are only the things that I can quickly think of that attribute to being a member of PESA. How the hell could anybody question spending $99 for this? $240? Of course! I just cannot believe that anybody here that has seen even a 10th of the benefit that I have would not spend the dues money, regardless of how complete our organization is. Na********* 1bu********** 10/11/06 12:32 PM (#77) Dues are long over due here. I think we need a bare minimum road map here though. At least some new by-laws and clearly definded elections with exact dates. St********* mya********** 10/11/06 01:01 PM (#78) I'm glad to see a lot of these concerns coming up. I don't think that many are necessarily against dues or membership fees, they just want to make sure some safeguards are in place to adequately account for the monies and a plan in place to provide some set tangible benefits. While this was my first summit and I found it invaluable, I do believe that there has to be more offered to Pesa members to justify dues. There have been many good ideas tossed around from health insurance, discount shipping, discount suppies and more. I think that the BOD needs to address some of these issues as it will have a great impact on the majority of the members deciding the worth of joining. Jo*********** joefriday2 10/11/06 01:03 PM (#79) It never ceases to amaze me. Everyone wants things, but many do not want to pay for them. The reason PESA is in the shape that it is now is because there has been no money to pay accountants, attorneys, executive directors and other normal expenses that come up when you have a trade organization. Members have put tens of thousands of dollars on their personal and company credit cards for event deposits, hotel guarantees, etc. because PESA does not have a budget or the money in place. Those days are over folks. The dues will come in and those dues will be allocated to the things that should have been done already. When the total amount is collected, the board will look at that total and decide how to spend it. Since they don't know what the total will be, it is impossible for them to decide how to spend the money at this time. You are under no obligation to stay and pay dues. I would advise you that if you have not gotten your $99 worth ALREADY then you should not stay and you should not pay dues. We won't think badly of you. We just realize that PESA is not right for you. This is a group of HIGH VOLUME internet sellers and if $99 is that big of a deal to you then you really are in the wrong group. When you get your business up to the level that you can really afford to pay dues then you can re-apply for PESA membership and I'm sure you will be welcomed back with no hard feelings. Ben joefriday2 10/11/06 01:08 PM (#80) You should base your decision on paying PESA dues on what you have received already. Expect nothing more. PESA is not your mother, your health insurer, your shipper, your employer or your union. PESA is what it is. Ben |
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#39
11-08-2006, 09:16 PM
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go**********
10/11/06 01:17 PM (#81) Hey Ben Very well put. B********* spo************ 10/11/06 01:37 PM (#82) Ben: I agree. Additionally, as a 501c-3 we are required to file an income tax return, and minutes. T********* 1bu************ 10/11/06 01:39 PM (#83) T******* where does it say we are a 501c-3 St********** har********** 10/11/06 01:50 PM (#84) Well put Ben. "Ask not what your PeSA can do for you, but what can you do for your PeSA" I feel PeSA has made a major jump forward, I'm proud of my PeSA Ga********** emo************ 10/11/06 02:34 PM (#85) Ju******* wrote, "Is this the corporate equivalent of the gang that couldn't shoot straight?" I think we will see that the new DUES RECEIVING Pesa will fast learn how to "shoot straight" (or else it will likely be superceded by another group that can). Br********** spo*********** 10/11/06 03:06 PM (#86) Jonathan: You clarified the 501c-3 status once before. Please do so again. Thanks, T********* ac************** 10/11/06 03:50 PM (#87) I started to recommend that the discussion about Pesa's organizational structure and transparency be moved to another thread. Since this thread is titled "PESA Organizational Update " and was started by Pesa's CEO, these queries seem appropriate here. Even though, transparency and better knowledge about the supposed corporation doesn't have much affect on the value of a $99 membership fee, these questions are appropriate issues for this thread. This thread is about much more than the value of membership. Since the BOD is requesting we pay for membership, I would appreciate Jonathan addressing the issues raised in other posts above. i.e. --- What is the corporate structure? What type of corporation is Pesa? Is Pesa a 501c-3? Who are the stock holders? Does the BOD have plans to improve transparency? Will financial reports be made available to the paid membership? Will financial reports be made available to the BOD? Etc., etc…. You know all the questions. It would be appropriate for the BOD to address them, especially since they have their hand out asking for $. As I said, I will be joining regardless. I would just like to know exactly what organization I am joining. It will be better if the paying members know what's going on from the beginning. So, please give us the rest of the story. Regards, jo*********** rec********** 10/11/06 06:49 PM (#88) It's not the $ amount, but it is the idea of spending $'s when you are not sure what you will receive in return. I am uncomfortable financialy supporting an organization where I won't know how the $ is spent and what defined benefit(s) I'll receive should I choose to pursue it(them). I too can echo the statments made here that there seems to be a core group that has a very strong vision, only it really keeps that vision to itself. I will not dispute the summits' values and hope one day to be able to attend myself. However, when new organizations (ECMTA) are popping up with no introduction to PESA and the group finds out from a 3rd party, it does lend itself a certain exclusionary image. This is just one example of why I as a member am leery of this board/group and question the return of value on the dues. And to address the issue of participation, just how many posts should a member be making to be considered valuable? It seems like that has been hit on alot lately. As a frequent lurker, I reply when I can and gleen alot of information from some discussions. It seems like if you have a contrary opinion - you are chastised and reminded that this is a group of volunteers and if you don't post alot, your opinion of the group direction is of lesser value. That is discouraging to say the least. I can't log in to the gopesa board so I don't know if any of my issues would have been addressed there. (L*****, I was writing this at the time of your email - I'm leaving it in as I still can't get in! But Thanks!) And ditto what Jo***** said above. "As I said, I will be joining regardless. I would just like to know exactly what organization I am joining. It will be better if the paying members know what's going on from the beginning. So, please give us the rest of the story." V********** "frequent lurker, infrequent poster" ce*********** 10/11/06 07:09 PM (#89) "I can't log in to the gopesa board so I don't know if any of my issues would have been addressed there." Don't worry you're not missing a whole lot over there! JH en********** 10/11/06 08:08 PM (#90) I agree with Jo*******, I will pay the dues regardless. I would easily pay $20/month just to be able to read the message board during my coffee break. There are some valid questions however that should be answered. Assuming we end up with 1000 paying members I think it would be imperative to the success of this organization to be transparent regarding PeSA finances. I also believe there should be more disclosure regarding the meeting with eBay, the ECMTA, and the general direction of PeSA as the BOD sees it. During the years that I have been a member here the BOD has often taken a somewhat elitist attitude of "we know best". I hope this is not taken out of context as my opinion/relationship of/with all Board Members is very good. Pri*****: You posted: "Jeesh! There was nothing about Joe's vision at the summit. It was all about how all these cool concepts could impact my business and how I could adapt them. I missed the part about about Joe's vision." Even though I could not attend the most recent Summit due to a conflict of interest (I did attend Atlanta and Austin) I am sure that the SF Summit was full of "cool concepts". Adam, Phil and their team of volunteers are absolutely brilliant when it comes to planning, organizing and executing the PeSA Summits. But I have to remind the folks here (not sure if you were here then) that it was less than 9 months ago that Joe Cortese implied that he wanted to fully merge PeSA into the eBay organization. Joe was even able to get Jay (who in my opinion is one of the most honest, knowledgable, and independent thinkers within PeSA) to write a long post as to why there was no longer any need for PeSA. Had the membership not overwhelmingly disagreed with that plan we may not have even had a Fall Summit. Now, I do tremendously respect Joe Cortese for having had the insight and courage to form this incredible organization but I WOULD like to know the agenda (and there IS an agenda). If that agenda involves Joe as a paid Chairman of this organization (be it PeSA or ECMTA) I may actually support it! I just want to know what the "roadmap" is because (IMO) there IS a roadmap - it just hasn't been fully disclosed to the general membership. So, should we pay dues? ABSOLUTELY YES! Have we had the transparency required from an organization that has 1000 members paying $240/yr/ ABSOLUTELY NOT! Regards, Da********** |
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#40
11-08-2006, 09:25 PM
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pri*********
10/11/06 11:39 PM (#91) Da*********, Thank you for this carefully crafted clarification. I greatly appreciate your putting this discussion into a historical context as well as the additional insights. You are right. I was not here 6 months ago, and your viewpoint is perhaps what I was looking for at the root of the issue. As always, there are two sides to every story...some are simply articulated better than others. I have put this onto my 13th brain cell for germination. Ju******* joefriday2 10/12/06 12:26 AM (#92) The way it was explained to me is that PESA will continue to be the trade group for the high volume sellers. ECMTA is a trade group for all online sellers. ECMTA does not restrict their membership to just high volume sellers. I got the impression that ECMTA will take anyone that wants to pay dues and is interested in online selling. Of course, I have not seen any ECMTA by-laws or real information about ECMTA so it is difficult to understand what they are up to. I do agree with those calling for proper tax filings, proper bylaws and general organizational structure for PESA. There is no question that this has been lacking at best. However, this "sloppiness" has much to do with the lack of money because membership dues have not been collected. It's just hard to do things without proper funding. I also question the qualifications of those putting together ECMTA. So far, PESA has not been organized properly by these same folks. Based upon the lack of proper PESA structure, after 3 years in PESA, I have seen nothing that would indicate that they are able, or even qualified to put an organization together such as ECMTA. You must remember that PESA grew out of an eBay bulletin board that was used by high volume sellers. No one had any idea that PESA would grow into a trade organization. I'll cut the organizers some slack on PESA just because of the circumstances and the lack of funding. But, ECMTA should have been ready to go (properly formed, by-laws, directors, etc,) prior to it being announced. Ben ce*********** 10/12/06 12:58 AM (#93) Great points Ben. JH sho*********** 10/12/06 01:22 AM (#94) Without hearing anything from the BOD so far. I am concerned these membership fees are to support the new ECMTA. I don't think we will see any improvement or benefits in PeSA. Ra********* joefriday2 10/12/06 02:07 AM (#95) Ra**********, I think the 501(c)3 corporation will stop them from co-mingling funds from PESA and ECMTA. The IRS does not have a sense of humor about these types of things. I do see a potential conflict of interest if the two organizations have the same board members or the same Executive Director. Of course ECMTA has not announced their board or their Executive Director. We may not see any improvement or benefits in PESA, but even if we don't, it's still worth the $99. But, I'm betting that with some money and proper organization, PESA will have the resources to put things together. If they don't get it together, we can just refuse to pay dues the second year and vote with our feet. I'm willing to give them 12 months to get their act together. My biggest goals would be as follows: 1. Get the by-laws in proper form with an appointed by-law committee. Steve Grossberg has volunteered to head this committee and I feel he will do a fine job. He thinks he can get this accomplished, with a committee, within 90 days. 2. Get the board expanded to at least eight members like other trade association boards. I personally do not feel that we are getting enough diversity on the PESA board. Ben mu*********** 10/12/06 04:45 AM (#96) Just for the record: I will pay $99, $240, or whatever it costs. As a member of the election committee, I have spent many hundred $ on endless ELCOM conference calls (calling in from Europe is a bit more expensive ), and so what? Over the years PESA has given me so much, I will never be able to reimburse this organization for what it has done for me. And despite of what some newbie says, I still can see JC's vision very clearly. Certainly we do need a sharper set of bylaws. Should st******** head this committee? I am not so sure. I see others here who might do a good job as well. Thank you Jonathan for the great news. Way to go. I am proud to be a PESAn. Al******** 1bu********* 10/12/06 04:57 AM (#97) " I still can see JC's vision very clearly" Can you sahre tha tvision with thos who might have missed it? li*********** 10/12/06 05:06 AM (#98) I've been with PeSa since before the first summit and I still haven't seen any visions. Care to share? 1bu********* 10/12/06 05:11 AM (#99) " Should st****** head this committee? I am not so sure. I see others here who might do a good job as well. Should Al****** be on the Elcom? I am not sure as I see others here who might do a good job as well. ba*********** 10/12/06 05:35 AM (#100) Wow, what a great dialog we have going here! It is great to see everyone's perspective and the collective call for accountability. PESA's strength lies in our diverse and dedicated membership. As we work through this phase in PESA's growth please refrain from attacking fellow members. This is a very passionate area for all of us and I understand tensions can be high. Please remember to treat your fellow members with the same respect that you deserve and expect. L******** -- Moderation Committee |
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#42
11-08-2006, 09:31 PM
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Oh, and everyone who thanked me, you are welcome.
And Passion... I don't mind. Even if I did I'm not exactly in a position to have a legitimate complaint about it.  But no, this is something eBay sellers all around have an interest in... |
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#43
11-09-2006, 02:56 AM
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After reading some of the posts about "where are we going and how will we get there" - with a vague response from those in authority -
Sounds like the answer to the question is - hell in a handbasket. |
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#44
11-09-2006, 04:21 AM
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Here's what I've translated from all of this....
"I know people. ebay people. You can't get a piss stall next to Rob Chestnut for less than $1,000 on the open market. We're going to add up all your $99, meet with Rob and then come back and tell YOU all about it!" "We don't know what we're going to do with the monies collected. We have to wait and see how many of you fools will send in your dues." "How can you even ask where this organization is going? I'm not even going to justify that question with an answer." "Pesa is a group of high volume sellers. If you can't afford $99 and not ask questions about how it's going to be spent, then we don't need or want you anywhere near us. Maybe when you learn to just bend over, take it and beg us to take your $99, you can come back into the fold. We might even speak to you again."
__________________
Life is a circus and I appear to be stuck in the Freak Tent |
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#45
11-09-2006, 04:33 AM
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la***********
10/12/06 05:39 AM (#101) St********, What is your big concern about "heading" the committee? I would think that as long as you had real contributions, the important thing would be to make them. In fact, a lot more would probably be accomplished with someone who didn't have such an antagonistic relationship with the founder. I would just hate to see a situation of a committee hitting brick walls based on personalities. L********* 1bu********* 10/12/06 05:51 AM (#102) L********* where did I say I was concerned? Please do not start rumors on something never stated by me. Thanks St******** 1bu******** 10/12/06 05:53 AM (#103) L********* If you are referring to my reply to Alexander's post, it was more to defend a personal attack made on me by Al********, it was not expressed as a concern for anything else other then Al****** making a personal attack on me. And who the hell care what Al******'s personal thoughts in this regard are anyway, just a totally idiotic and stupid post he made St******* la*********** 10/12/06 05:55 AM (#104) link to another thread on the PeSA board 1bu******** 09/09/06 11:19 AM (#54) "St****** has offered to rewrite the bylaws." Correction, St****** has agreed to head a committee to re-write proposed by-laws to submit to board for review and approval. St******* 1bu********** 10/12/06 05:58 AM (#105) And your point L*******, I think that post was self explanatory, no? I never agreed to "re-write" the by-laws personally myself. I would agree to head a commitee and assist in re-writing them and of course submitting to BOD for approval. That it what was said nothing more nothing less, what are you reading into it that was not said or there? Why you even bringing this up? sho************* 10/12/06 06:05 AM (#106) "I still haven't seen any visions. Care to share?" I have been a PeSA member since 2004 and have yet to see this either. This is a big part of why I question the dues. Everything seem to be a big secret. I think it will get even worse when money is involved. Ra*********** co*********** 10/12/06 06:35 AM (#107) I don't think a ebay hosted discussion board is the place to release goals of intent. I believe we should expect a more clear direction of goals when this group makes the transition to a trade asoc. off of ebay This is going to become a pay to play board and I do hope more structure is to come. I just suppose and hope PESA will remove itself from this ebay hosted board. K********* emo*********** 10/12/06 07:12 AM (#108) Good point K*******. But it would sure help if most of the members could even ACCESS the other board! Maybe some of those dues monies could go towards bringing that board into the 21st century so that it doesn't take many requests and a month or more to gain access. Br******** ta********** 10/12/06 07:27 AM (#109) What a silly thread. First off, PESA isn't and wouldn't be a 501(c)(3). It is a 501(c)(6). (flame on) Second, how much fricking transparency do you really need for $99 bucks. Sheesh! I don't always agree with Joe and the BOD, but one thing is certain after three plus years now. These guys are not ripping people off and moving to Brazil with your $99 lousy bucks. They've put on summits, done a website, tried to organized relationships with vendors like BuySafe to get us special deals, set up a health insurance dealio, and so forth. These dudes are volunteers. If you're unhappy with the way things are being run -- we'll you're certainly getting your money's worth so far. Third, it's $99. Come on now people. It's one thing to complain about attending a summit. That's money and your time, which is really valuable. But 99 clams? Are you kidding me? Do you live on potatoes and water? We're supposed to be top sellers here! If you can't find $99 of value just from lurking on this board, you are in the wrong business. Fourth, even if everything is a big "secret" and there are all these conspiracies and everything . . . WHO CARES!!! I mean really. I could drink an entire bottle of Metamucil and I still wouldn't give a crap about all the political BS like how to properly moderate these boards, whether Randy Smythe is invited to join or not, or whether the PESA election polls were open 3 days or 4 days. BOD: Don't listen to the naysayers. People either recognize the value of PESA and are willing to pony up $99 or not. Once you have our $99s, then you have a year to prove that the group is worth $240 (it is). Back to lurking (flame off) An******** en******** 10/12/06 09:20 AM (#110) An********* A thread on the change in Organizational Structure of PeSA is silly?? I don't believe the majority of posters in this thread are objecting to paying dues ($99, $240 whatever) or are accusing ANYONE within PeSA of "ripping people off". I agree with you: most of us can get "$99 of value just from lurking on this board" however this message board is free - it doesn't cost anyone anything to operate. Therefore, I don't believe it is unreasonable that the membership would like to be informed as to how that money will be spent. Quote: "Fourth, even if everything is a big "secret" and there are all these conspiracies and everything . . . WHO CARES!!!" You may not care but many of us do. It was only a mere 9 months ago that PeSA almost lost it's independent status because of perhaps some "secret" closed-door dealings that we were not privy to. Due to many PeSA members that did "care", PeSA remained a thriving and independent organization. I have been a member of PeSA for several years and have never considered myself a "naysayer". I always try and keep my post positive, constructive and non-political. I appreciate that you have an opinion and would always encourage you to share it. Please give consideration for others to do the same. Regards, Da******** |
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#46
11-09-2006, 04:45 AM
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lo********
10/12/06 09:47 AM (#111) I found $99 worth of value just in this discussion board alone after a few hours of reading through many of the threads. There are still threads I have not completely read through yet. -Ch******* la********* 10/12/06 11:52 AM (#112) Happy to pay $99. I do agree better communication between the BOD and the general membership would help improve morale and everyones confidence with regards to how "professional" our professional alliance really is. I think many of us, after our experience with eBay and its horrible communication and complete disregard for its community, are gunshy about any organization not being transparent - especially when some of us have only met "online". It is easy for things to seem too impersonal (resulting in distrust) when an organization's primary means of communication is electronic. With regards to dues and the NEED for dues to get more organized - it seems to be a "chicken or the egg" scenario. It is hard to have one without the other. I gather this is why the first round of dues is lower - in an attempt to garner good faith and show results before upping the ante. My long-winded way of saying that I am happy to be a paying member and I am optimistic/hopeful regarding the future of PESA. tra********** 10/12/06 06:20 PM (#113) I think the chicken and the egg analogy is a good one. I, for one, think it is madness that volunteers float expenses on their own credit cards, spend a bunch of hours organizing events, and get a bunch of grief (and a bunch of thank yous) for their effort. However, I would also like to see a plan for where we are headed. This does not mean *poof* we go from where we are to a finished state, but the communication of a plan would be nice. Example: - Assuming paid membership of # ppl, annual dues collected is $x - Sponsors contribute $y - $x + $y = $z operating budget, with obvious fluctuations - these positions will draw $x in stipends - general plans for balance of money include a, b, and c (hopefully, including professional help at events, financial disclosures, improved communication by BOD and committees, etc.) - top 3 priorities and their status by committee are 1, 2, and 3 - interaction with ECTMA (by PeSA members, BOD, etc.) involves x, y, and z If only 500 members remain, that's $120k in dues next year. I fully anticipate that we will get our $240 worth, but it'd sure be nice to know what the plans are to leverage that much money. T********** ba************ 10/12/06 06:23 PM (#114) This sure seems to me like a long thread over $8.25 per month (Roughly the same cost as my lunch each day). I think it is safe to say that I get $8 per month in value out of the message board alone just in the tips tricks that people post that result in time savings. All I ask is that they take my $99 and produce benefits for me. My exposure is $99 and for that, I don't care who holds it, makes decisions over how to spend it, or what city they decide to spend it in next time around. All I am looking for is that the dues function to enhance the benefits for all dues paying members. If I don't feel like I have gotten my $100 bucks worth after a year, that will factor in to my decision to renew at X price point a year later. Ba********** ge************ 10/12/06 07:45 PM (#115) Does anyone know or remember the thread where publicly the BOD stated what type of corp PESA is or was? I seem to recall that was stated in a thread in the past 24 months. That would be very important to know at this juncture. Andrew's quote above about the type of corp may or may not be accurate as to what it "should" be. For all we know, PESA may not even be a "NON PROFIT" corp. But it seems to me, if PESA were a TRUE NON PROFIT, we would have had to file certain public docs yearly, especially when having received nearly $500k in revenue. It would also make a HUGE difference in my mind as to what type of corp ECMTA is before I go and support it (finacially or otherwise) Mi********* Bolding mine - TR li*********** 10/13/06 03:01 AM (#116) QUOTE: gothamcityonline (156348 ) 07/11/04 04:34 PM (#71 of 155) "I have moved forward and filed the organization's incorporation papers and once accepted will file for 501(c)6 status of the organization. I'm not sure of the mission of the other board, but I would like this group to accomplish more than just being a forum for candid conversation." internal link to thread removed li 10/13/06 03:06 AM (#117) PRESS RELEASE - Summit Las Vegas, Oct 22-24 noblespirit (16980 ) 10/15/04 06:10 PM About the PES Alliance The Professional eBay Sellers Alliance (PES Alliance) is a 501(c) 6, non-profit, trade association founded in October 2003 to serve the ever-evolving needs of small businesses which make their living selling in various online marketplaces including eBay.com. The PES Alliance currently has over 600 members, who were admitted membership to the group based on quantitative or qualitative criteria originally established by the Board of Directors. The Alliance also revealed a philanthropic side, (defined by the Board as a core value of the group); by reaching out to the e-commerce community with their “Sellers Helping Sellers” campaign at the “eBay Live!” 2004 Community Conference in July. While attending the conference, the group also sponsored a fundraising event for the DOUA, (Disabled Online Users Association), which raised approximately $15,000 in one evening. Additional community events are being planned for the eBay Live! 2005 Community internal link removed 1bu********* 10/13/06 03:24 AM (#118) I do not see how that is possible at least at that point in time, the corporation articles were not field to over 1 year later after that press release. https://www.sos.nh.gov/corporate/sos...ngs.asp?743048 ge********* 10/13/06 05:39 AM (#119) Hmmmm, That is strange. Look at the wording, what was stated is that the "incorporation" papers were filed, it does not confirm that the 501(c)6 status was filed for???????? I would be curious to know if those filings were ever completed and if we in fact have a NON PROFIT status?????? St******, I think you are looking at the NEW organization that Jonathan owns, not PESA's filings. Mi********* 1bu********* 10/13/06 05:43 AM (#120) Mi******** No those are PESA's filings, that I a mcertain about St******* |
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#47
11-09-2006, 04:54 AM
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ge********
10/13/06 05:50 AM (#121) Ok, how are you certain? Mi******* 1bu******** 10/13/06 06:02 AM (#122) Read the articles, it specifically mentions "ebay sellers" to qualify 1bu 10/13/06 06:03 AM (#123) Plus read the by-laws Mi****** http://www.gopesa.org/bylaws.htm E-commerce Merchants Alliance Organization Bylaws Introduction The registered name of the Association is the "E-commerce Merchants Alliance (“EMA”)" which currently operates under the name of “The Professional eBay Sellers Alliance” (referred to in this document as "PESA"). There are no other operations of EMA outside of the activities conducted by PESA. PESA was established on August 23, 2003. PESA has the following mission statement: "The Professional eBay Sellers Alliance provides a service to high volume eBay sellers by helping to establish a favorable operating environment, by providing a forum for discussion on non-competitive issues, and by providing information to assist them in their business." 1bu********** 10/13/06 06:06 AM (#124) Mi******** as we have spoken about many times the BOD has offered basically zero transparency, hence only a select few no the details of non profit status, have tax returns been filed etc. Not sure why the BOD has never been forthcoming with such info, but not being tranparent only leads to problems. MEMCOM is Membership Committeeac********** 10/13/06 10:18 AM (#125) Mi******** Since you are the MEMCOM chair, how does this affect 'organizational update' Pesa's membership guidelines or requirements? jo******** MEMCOM is Membership Committee emo*********** 10/13/06 11:29 AM (#126) Here's an idea: How about along with the $99 dues, each member provide how many eBay transactions they had last year and the total of those sales (this info IS public knowledge and any robot could be gathering it at any time), and then some math whiz at Pesa could compile those two totals and then we would ACTUALLY know for sure how many annual transactions and sales Pesa actually represents. I never understood why anyone is secretive about their annual sales, anyway. Br******** ac********** 10/13/06 11:34 AM (#127) I guess I should read what I write before I post it. Should have been: Mi********** Since you are the MEMCOM chair, how does this 'organizational update' affect Pesa's membership guidelines or requirements? jo******* ji******** 10/13/06 11:38 AM (#128) I have no specific knowledge of PeSA's non-profit status, but my strong feeling is that it is not a non-profit group nor should it be. In searching the IRS database of non-profits I can find no other similar organization that is listed as a non-profit. Not shop.org or it's parent National Retail Association; not North American Equipment Dealers Association, not the National Trucking Association, or any other similar association that I have searched for. My feeling is that a trade association of any type is not generally organized as a non-profit. If the association has a specific education foundation or a charitable foundation (eBay Foundation) then those separate entities are set up as non-profits. With that said, I agree that members should be informed on the formal organizational structure of PeSA, its finances, etc., and I feel that it will be forthcoming. Ji******* 1bu******** 10/13/06 11:52 AM (#129) "but my strong feeling is that it is not a non-profit group nor should it be." Ji***** regardless of what your feeling is this is what we were all told PESA is, the posts from Jonathan state so, so have we been dooped? ge******** 10/13/06 12:00 PM (#130) Hmmmmmmm, have we all been duped? That is the question of the day. Which is why I am curious, have I been volunteering my time and energy to a private corp that now someone will own and gain from my sweat equity, your sweat equity and many other's sweat equity. I also was under the belief this would be a NON PROFIT group where all proceeds would be used for the sole benefit of the growth of the group. NEVER ONCE did anyone say anything about a person or persons owning this group and benefitting from it's resources. Jo******, Instituting dues without the consent, knowledge or consultation of the MEMCOM is just rude. Allowing members to enter the group without passing through the MEMCOM is also RUDE. AND more importantly disempowers the entire volunteer MEMCOM. My group has been saying for a long time "why do we meet, why do we have discussions, why bother if the board is going to do what it wants". IF the board is a BOD for a private corp, then it's only responsibility is to the stockholders (just like eBay) but if the group is a non profit for the benefit of it's members (as we were all told it would be) then the BOD has a responsibility to it's members and it's volunteers. This BOD acts as if it is a private corp, but asks for volunteers like it is a NON PROFIT and then when mistakes are made, it uses the volunteers as a a scapegoat saying "hey, we are only volunteers, what do you expect". Bottom line, I just need to know if I am donating my time and resources to a private corp owned by 1-2-3 people who will eventually profit from my hard work or am I volunteering my time and effort to a NON PROFIT for the benefit of us all. One answer, I can move on and make my decisions. SO, yes, it matters to MEMCOM. Mi******* |
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#48
11-09-2006, 05:02 AM
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1bu*******
10/13/06 12:35 PM (#131) hmm, very interesting thoughts Mi******. The BOD seems always to be silent and never answer questions like this, I guess this time is no different, they usually wait until the smokes clears and everything blows over and never provide answers. Ohh, isn't that called transparency? St******** li********* 10/13/06 01:27 PM (#132) Well Joe did craft an answer to a post in the Summit thread, maybe it wore him out. We'll have to wait until he rests to get another post out of him. Same ole, same ole. They've adopted the eBay way. Throw them a bombshell, let them throw their fits, just wait them out until they go away and then we'll do whatever we want anyway. ac********** 10/13/06 02:07 PM (#133) Mi******, I hadn't thought about things that way. Over the last two years indications from the BOD and the posted bylaws have been that Pesa is a NON profit corporation. Jonathan's post in the gopesa election thread about the two corporations talks about his ownership in both organizations, ECMTA and PESA and about the direction he will take. This gives some indication they might be private, for profit corporations. Everyone who has volunteered over the last two years have done so under the understanding that Pesa was to be incorporated as a nonprofit corporation. This belief was formed per the statements and posts by members of the BOD. I know I have not worked to build Pesa so someone's pockets could eventually get lined. In 2004, I was on the BOD and the BOD understood that we were working to build a nonprofit corporation. The BOD's continual secrecy raises the possibility that we have all been mislead. The BOD's reluctance to clarify the confusion by posting Pesa's current organizational structure is troubling. A simple post stating that Pesa is a nonprofit corporation would kill any and all conspiracy theories. Members would know what their work goes toward. Refusing to post just adds fuel to the fire and confuses everyone. Now, this thread has turned out to be about a much more serious issue than the value of Pesa membership being => $99. I don't think this issue will go away if the BOD ignores it. I hope they don't think that. I hope the BOD values Pesa's membership enough to let them know the facts. Refusal to inform the membership gives an indication that the BOD really doesn't care about its members. BOD, PLEASE HELP US ALL BY LETTING THE MEMBERS KNOW THE ACTUAL LEGAL STRUCTURE OF PESA. A simple post is all it takes. Regards, jo******** ce********* 10/13/06 02:37 PM (#134) I frankly don't see how PESA would qualify for either 501(c)(3) (religious and charitable non-profits) or 501(c)(6) (professional trade associations) status. According to the IRS, the following scenario does NOT pass the test of a 501(c)(6) non-profit: "An organization composed of individuals, firms, associations, and corporations, each representing a different trade, business, occupation, or profession whose purpose is to exchange information on business prospects has no common business interest other than a mutual desire to increase their individual sales. The activities are not directed to the improvement of one or more lines of business, but rather to the promotion of the private interests of its members." The above is quoting point #1 on page 12 of this document: http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-tege/eotopick03.pdf It seems to me that the above scenario describes PESA to a "T". We are a group of businesses who sell unrelated products. The only thing that ties us together is selling online. Just to play devil's advocate -- If we were all set up together in a strip mall, would the IRS let us form a non-profit organization? Our common interest would be improving business at the strip mall. Same situation here in a "virtual" strip mall. It seems to me that the above ruling practically eliminates the chance of PESA being or becoming a 501(c)(6). After reading this document, there shouldn't be much question here. PESA is not organized as a non-profit. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. JH 1bu******* 10/13/06 02:53 PM (#135) What surpises me is that all of you are suprised about this, the writing has been on the walls for mosths if not years this thing was going to be monetized, and done so in a way for personal gain IMO. I certainly hope I was wrong, but the answers have yet to be provided. If you look at post #2 of this thread Iasked teh following, which has yet to be answered. Jonathan this seems like all good news. Can you provide a little more detail though. Is PESA still a non profit org? Is ECMTA a non profit org? St******* ji********** 10/13/06 03:49 PM (#136) JH: I am reading the IRS rules on non-profits the same way you are. I just don't think that the IRS non-profit requirements matched what this group was trying to do. Does this mean that we were all duped? I can only speak for myself, but I wasn't fooled. I never read anywhere that they had attained non-profit status, except for that very early post above. It is easy enough to search the IRS site for non-profits, and I never see PeSA listed there, so I assume that they were either turned down, changed their mind about non-profit, or that it takes a long time to obtain this status. While I would prefer PeSA was more open with their membership, I understand that a post on this board is seen by so many other eyes than just members, and posts are even carried to other chat boards. I am sure that more information will be forthcoming, if they expect to transition to a dues paying membership. I have no reason to believe that PeSA has anything to hide. We have board members and an executive director that I trust completely. Ji******* ce********** 10/13/06 04:00 PM (#137) I have never seen any sort of "official" declaration that PESA is a non-profit either. I have not even seen an "unofficial" comment about non-profit status from any member of the BOD. Personally, I don't think PESA needs to be a non-profit to accomplish great things. That said, obviously a lot of people feel they were led to believe otherwise (or at the very least assumed otherwise and were not corrected by those who had info on the actual status). This type of thing can undermine trust in an organization. There is nothing wrong with not pursuing non-profit status. That fact just needs to be clarified to the membership so everyone knows what is going on and why it is happening. JH ce*********** 10/13/06 04:13 PM (#138) One other thing-- just because PESA isn't a non-profit doesn't mean that it has to operate with the purpose of generating profits. In my eyes, it should be operated as close to "profit neutral" as possible while still having adequate funding to accomplish goals. I also don't see $99 dues suddenly making Joe or any "insider" rich! I trust everything will be handled appropriately and members will see a positive return on that $99 investment. JH lo********** 10/13/06 04:13 PM (#139) I have just one thought all of the sudden about this and it may turn into a discussion of its own. Someone recently posted (jokingly I believe) that they would take 100 shares of PeSA at the IPO. Just possibly if each member in this group were to each own one share of PeSA stock at an initial cost of $99.00, then based upon the revenue that by having capital might create, such stock value may rise or fall (Or I suppose it could be a fixed price possibly??) I know this would blow the idea of a non-profit out the window, but may yield more members with a vested interest OR it just may create a big old mess of a bunch of arguments. I have been in coin clubs that raised money through selling spaces at coin shows. I assume PeSA could do the same (think summits). Maybe they already do. So the stock idea doesn't fly...eh? Just a thought. Ch******** aa********* 10/13/06 04:32 PM (#140) "or that it takes a long time to obtain this status." That is indeed the case. I sit on the BOD of a non-profit and have been involved with several others. Achieving non-profit status is a very protracted, frustrating experience. The gov't doesn't just hand out non-profit status to anyone... even very deserving philanthropic groups are heavily scrutinized. Whether that has anything to do with PeSA's current status, I have no idea. An******* |
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11-09-2006, 05:09 AM
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10/13/06 04:34 PM (#141) BTW, I do agree that it would be nice if the BOD would weigh in here, and I also agree that communication from the top down is very wanting. An******* sh********** 10/13/06 04:39 PM (#142) "I have been in coin clubs that raised money through selling spaces at coin shows. I assume PeSA could do the same (think summits). Maybe they already do. ". I believe this is how the previous summits were partially financed. Ra******** ac********** 10/13/06 05:52 PM (#143) Maybe the BOD has the cart before the horse. Maybe they don't really know what corporate structure Pesa will have next year. If that is the case, the BOD should have made those decisions before they decided to come to us with their hand out. They are stating, if you want to be a member of Pesa after November 2006 and until the end of 2007, pay $99. Members should be able to know exactly what type of organization they are joining. What will be the membership requirements? How will the committees function? There are so many questions which should have been answered before the BOD came to the members asking for $$$. I see a lot of members, me included, responding that they definitely see that $99 is a great bargain for membership in what Pesa can provide its membership. But, I also see a large majority of the members posting in this thread asking exactly what is the corporate structure of Pesa. I see some members indicating that they feel mislead (duped) and might not continue their membership if the corporate structure is like #2 below. What I don't see is the BOD offering any transparency in regards to these questions. Not knowing is not a valid excuse for ignoring the questions. Just be honest. 1- If Pesa cannot qualify for non profit status, just state that. 2- If Pesa is a FOR PROFIT corporation and the sole stockholders are Joe and Jonathan, just state that. 3- If the BOD has no clue what the structure will be, just state that and let us know your goal. 4- If Pesa is a NON PROFIT corporation, just state that. 5- If the BOD is assembling a response and will post it early next week, just state that and follow through. Currently, the BOD is asking 1040 members to pay $99. That's ~ $100,000. I think the members deserve to know if the use of that money will be controlled by one person. In other words, the members have the right to know who will own and control that money. How will it be used? Jonathan posted: "Many people have indicated that an increased level of professionalism should extend all the way through the process" Is this process of collecting membership fees without informing potential members what type of corporation they are joining an example of how the BOD will provide an "increased level of professionalism"? Don't think so. So, as I see it, the critical task before the BOD is to JUST SAY SOMETHING! Anything will certainly change the tone of this thread. Knowing the five BODs, it is hard to accept that a majority of Joe, Jonathan, Tom, Adam and David support silence and secrecy. Help ensure that this continues to be "an exciting chapter in our organization's history" jo******** emo******* 10/13/06 06:05 PM (#144) Jo***** wrote, "Currently, the BOD is asking 1040 members to pay $99. That's ~ $100,000" I would be amazed if 400 people pony up the $99, and would not be surprised if less than 200 do. We are talking about a shadowy organization with no rules and no stated benefits. Excellent post, Jo******. I assume that you like me will not be holding your breath waiting for an official BOD response? Br******** 1bu********* 10/13/06 06:10 PM (#145) In the articles of incorporation it states there is no capital stock, however it also states the following. "assets will be liquidated to settle all outstanding liabilities. Should there be any remaining assets, those assets will be distributed to the parties that contributed capital to the corporation on a pro-rated basis" It does not say who contributed capital. I do not remember anyone asking if anyone wanted to contribute capital for what was obviously set up from the get go to be a for profit company. Also who is Belinda Horton who signed the articles? It appears to be Jonathan’s NYC business address. I was one calling for dues for a while now. I also have no problem with reimbursing BOD and other committee members for any out of pocket expenses occurred for group purposes. However anytime tough questions were asked in the past in this regard either the BOD would remain silent and eventually things would settle down and it would be swept under the rug, or some of the BOD were getting extremely defensive and accusing members including myself of making up “conspiracy theory allegations” when all along many members, especially those who volunteered time were getting duped. Looks like again they will simply be silent in hopes quite a few members buck up $99 and take a wait and see attitude. Most of what I have gotten from PESA came from peer to peer conversations or posts from these forums or through other means. So now the BOD or some of them are trying to monetize our collective knowledge for personal gain? Something is wrong with this picture if this is true. The signs of this being true have been there for some while now, and after this latest announcement and again silence from the BOD in hope everyone will buck up $99 and find out later where the funds go is simply ludicrous. Without members PESA is worthless, is I certainly hope the BOD clarifies all this before asking anyone for 1 cent. Maybe this is why the ebay meeting was secretive as well? Maybe they wanted ebay's blessing on this? 1bu******** 10/13/06 06:14 PM (#146) "Excellent post, Jo*****. I assume that you like me will not be holding your breath waiting for an official BOD response?" If nobody paid the $99 until we got answers the BOD will have to respond. Hard to hold events, get ebay meetings, amazon and google to present, and other sponsors to show at summits with only a BOD and no members. It is not the monies or dues that bother most people from what I gather, it is the fact once again this BOD has obvious hidden agendas, something I have been pointing out for a while now and always get attacked from a select few saying "have trust" and let it go. Hope you all learned a valuable lesson now. re********** 10/13/06 08:06 PM (#147) I'm still scratching my head here - collectively, we are going to be asked to pay $99 in dues, gain membership to this group and another that has yet to be officially introduced, and I'm supposed to pony up with no questions? Why a board of intelligent business professionals would make this announcement without having all their ducks in a row is baffling. I would never approach my bank, family or friends and ask for money without providing a sound reason (yes I know the summits cost $, but how much? And what other expenses are involved). I'm not saying there isn't a real need for dues and fundraising, but I'm not loose with my money and want to have a clear idea of what I am buying membership in. Why is the BOD not addressing any of these concerns? Why kind of financial structure will this organization have? Why is ECMTA linked to PESA? If sponsorships have been paid to/forPeSa in the past how were they declared and by whom? Would donations mitigate the complications here? Even more curious. Va*********** bo********** 10/13/06 08:08 PM (#148) Of course they should respond to these comments for that is part of being a Board member - maybe it should be done in our off-eBay forum. And I certainly can understand some of these concerns about formalizing the structure and improving the communication of the organization. I personally think all summits should have a members only meeting where the Board can field questions from the group. I support the Board and our committee members for I cannot imagine the amount of time these volunteers have given over the years and it would not surprise me if they have personally had to dip into their own pockets on occasion over the years. I have received much value from this organization and trust the Board so I have no qualms about paying dues. I can understand some of your frustration for I have firsthand experience participating on a healthcare taskforce that clearly could and should have resulted in the selection of a firm that would provide benfits for this group but somehow it did not happen though I thought the choice was obvious. I certainly will expect a little more from an organization that I pay dues for and as someone with a financial background, I would certainly expect to see an elected Treasurer but would anybody run for this and manage this as a volunteer? An****** re****** 10/13/06 08:10 PM (#149 of 742) I posted before I had read Jo****'s email. As ususal, very well stated. Va******* 1bu******** 10/13/06 08:28 PM (#150) There is an apparent reason why the BOD does not respond. There is a history of this when there are questions posed they do not want to answer or do not have the answers for. The usual pattern is for the BOD to ignore the thread until it dies and goes away. The other pattern is for one or more to come out and get defensive without ever answering the questions at hand, then accuse posters of creating conspiracy theories and hidden agenda theories. Most folks who get defensive without directly answering questions do it because the yare hiding factual information. Well it is also apparent there is a hidden agenda here or things like this would not be sprung on us without answers to some important questions that were posed, there is no way ion my mind the BOD dreamed this up only prior to the announcement being made. Read the writing on the walls folks, this has obvious been in the works for a while now. It is happening again here, all one had to do is go back to post #2 where I asked the following which was never answered when Jonathan initially responded to questions. Jonathan This seems like all good news. Can you provide a little more detail though. Is PESA still a non profit org? Is ECMTA a non profit org? How is this to be considered a professional group when the BOD is obviously reading the forums and nobody comments on some serious concerns of members? How to they allow all this speculation to go on unanswered unless the answers are not known or detrimental to their cause? Let me speculate some more. I would have to assume there are some shareholders now, and this is set up as a for profit company. There is probably a heft balance leftover from the SF Summit of $50,000 or more. The marketing is to get 300-400 members to pony up $99 now to bait the hook, then $240 plus next year. It is easier to attract new members who will pay $240 plus when you have 300-400 strong from the get go. It is also easier to attract sponsors when you have 300-400 from the get go, because 300-400 due paying members are better then 1040 non due paying members. Ultimately fees get raised as membership goes up both to members and sponsors where eventually dues go to say $500 per year at 1000 members or $500,000 per year and sponsors will be at $5000 to $50,000 and the Gross can be up to 1 million per year. Summits will then be run as a for profit event, so the annual gross before expenses could be upwards of 1 million. Now there is nothing wrong with aggressive and motivated entrepreneurs looking to start a company and male a profit. There is something wrong when they did it by duping many and the hard work and knowledge of many without full disclosure. I can only hope the BOD comes out now and proves me wrong. |
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11-09-2006, 05:13 AM
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I very much agree that this is something that all ebay sellers have an interest in and should be informed about. |
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